Morbo

Time for another round of "why won't it start"....

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Seriously, WTF? Hondas are boring, unimaginative, but at least they're reliable, or supposed to be. 

 

Haven't ridden it since the week before Christmas. Been on a battery tender the whole time. Fired right up over New Year's Eve weekend; ran it for 30 seconds or so and shut it down. Rolled it out tonight in hopes of riding to work tomorrow and tried to start it tonight and it won't turn over. Fuel pump primes, just won't turnover. It's garage kept, but not climate controlled, so it's been pretty cold the past couple weeks, below freezing for sure. I checked every fuse; all fine. Literally the only change since I fired it up a week ago was rolling it 10' out of the cubby where I park it. It's low on gas, meant to fill it up before parking it but was unable to. No idea if any of this plays any factor whatsoever. Pardon my snark, just fairly pissed at the random, stupid shit I've encountered with this bike. Especially when my 2005 never gave me a single problem despite being 7 years old when I bought it.

 

No idea what it could be since it started right up perfectly a week ago. From what I read, we'd need to be living in northern Canada for it to be cold enough to freeze the gas. Could the low gas level combine with below-freezing temps to gum up the fuel lines somehow?

 

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If it was me, I would put fresh gas in it. Not because that is the most likely culprit, but because it is the easiest/cheapest thing to try. I guess theoretically there could be a lot of water in the tank because of condensation. 

You already checked the fuses, so I guess the next move would be check for spark. 

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If it won't turn over it isn't a fuel problem. It's an electrical problem. Battery, fuses, connections, starter switch, starter relay, starter, etc. Unless the motor is locked up of course, doubtful, but also easy to check. I would start by checking the battery out. Do you have a meter? Check voltage, connections are tight, relay is functioning, etc. Didn't you have an electrical issue where the bike would just die on you? Did you get that resolved? You can also easily send power directly to the starter, bypassing the fuses, switch and relay just to verify the starter actuality works, assuming battery verified good.

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It cranks. There is another Stlar member whose 600rr is very sensitive to battery condition. And Ive seen vehicles that would crank...but during crank didnt have enough voltage to operate the ECU, injectors, and fuel pump at the same time. Jason's battery is 3 years old, in an unheated garage which causes extra internal engine friction while reducing available battery capacity.  The bike is on a battery tender. At this point I advised him to connect a voltmeter to the battery and see if the voltage remains at 10VDC during 15 seconds of cranking. Not as accurate as using a dedicated battery tester, but he has what he has, and checking cranking voltage is a good 1st step. If below 10V, I'd replace the battery. It calls for a Yuasa YTZ10S, so he'll look for one in his area. This engine could also be flooded, but that's another matter to be addressed next if need be.

 

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@ZRX4ME... Meant to ask you last night, I received a portable jump starter (like the one you had shown us at a meeting last year). Would it be a valid test to use it to see if the bike starts, as a means to test the battery?

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You can try to start it on the portable unit, but that isnt a valid test of the battery itself. It wont give you battery capacity in numbers.  If it starts using the jumper battery, great. If it doesnt, try disconnecting the bike's battery and going directly from the portable unit to the bike's battery cables.

Still, 3 years on an oem battery might be its life span. Yuasa's spec for your battery is 190CCA(Cold Cranking Amps), and I'd want to know what your battery's capacity is.

Cranking for 15 seconds while monitoring battery voltage to see if it can sustain at lest 10.0 VDC would give you an idea of the battery's status and would give you a general clue, but it isnt a definitive test. If youre in my area with the battery I can test it for you.

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I'm confused. He said "it won't turn over" which to me says it doesn't crank. I guess it does in fact turn over?

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10 hours ago, crash said:

If it won't turn over it isn't a fuel problem. It's an electrical problem. Battery, fuses, connections, starter switch, starter relay, starter, etc. Unless the motor is locked up of course, doubtful, but also easy to check. I would start by checking the battery out. Do you have a meter? Check voltage, connections are tight, relay is functioning, etc. Didn't you have an electrical issue where the bike would just die on you? Did you get that resolved? You can also easily send power directly to the starter, bypassing the fuses, switch and relay just to verify the starter actuality works, assuming battery verified good.

 

Yeah, I had the BAS fuse pop twice on me last Sept. Terry & I (well.. Terry) looked at it in October and couldn't find anything. It hasn't popped since the 2 times in September. Terry has a few more things to try but waiting for warmer weather to bring it back to him. I do have a multi-meter, going to do the test Terry mentioned to see if voltage does or doesn't drop.

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So it does then over then (starter actually does something when you push the starter button)?

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7 minutes ago, crash said:

So it does then over then (starter actually does something when you push the starter button)?

 

Yup, you can hear it cranking in the video I posted. I used the wrong words; when I said "it won't turnover" I was meaning it cranks but engine doesn't start. 

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47 minutes ago, ZRX4ME said:

You can try to start it on the portable unit, but that isnt a valid test of the battery itself. It wont give you battery capacity in numbers.  If it starts using the jumper battery, great. If it doesnt, try disconnecting the bike's battery and going directly from the portable unit to the bike's battery cables.

Still, 3 years on an oem battery might be its life span. Yuasa's spec for your battery is 190CCA(Cold Cranking Amps), and I'd want to know where your batteryt's capacity.

Cranking for 15 seconds while monitoring battery voltage to see if it can sustain at lest 10.0 VDC would give you an idea of the battery's status would give you a general clue, but it isnt a definitive test. If youre in my area with the battery I can test it for you.

 

Thanks Terry. I'll test with the portable starter tonight, if for no other reason than to have an excuse to play with a new toy and make sure it works. If it does fire I'll at least not be worried about the engine being flooded. Will also do the multi-meter test as well.

 

I looked and there are quite a few Yuasa dealers in the area. If I get time at work I'll call around and see if anyone has one in stock.

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1 hour ago, Morbo said:

 

Yup, you can hear it cranking in the video I posted. I used the wrong words; when I said "it won't turnover" I was meaning it cranks but engine doesn't start. 

 

Well shit, the video wasn't showing up for me for some reason when I posted a response and was just going off of what you typed. You said in your comment that it wasn't turning over, but it clearly is in the video. But having watched the video I think I know what to do. Follow these steps:

 

1) Open gas cap

2) Insert Kawasaki

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28 minutes ago, crash said:

 

Well shit, the video wasn't showing up for me for some reason when I posted a response and was just going off of what you typed. You said in your comment that it wasn't turning over, but it clearly is in the video. But having watched the video I think I know what to do. Follow these steps:

 

1) Open gas cap

2) Insert Kawasaki

 

Says the KTM guy trying to offload his Kawi's. :D

 

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You could use a nice ZX10R!!! I will provide you a 1 year guarantee that it will start, and it will not die on you in the middle of the road. If it does I'll fix it.

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As tempting as that is... this will probably be my last super-sport/sportbike. I'll probably be looking to move back to a naked bike again, akin to an FZ10.

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I'll have a 1290 Super Duke for sale by then. :)

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This stuff i dont have time for so i bypass anything thats over my head or build my own system. It is not the best option but it is AN option?

I have 30 or so motors to care for and doing whats best on my current budget is not always an option for time and or money reasons🤠

 

 

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Well, still doesn't start. Topped off the tank with fresh gas. Hooked up the multimeter, 12.4 volts when off. Never dropped below 11.1 when cranking. It sputtered once like it was going to fire up but didn't. Could smell gas after cranking. Hooked up the portable charger, made no difference. It actually has an indicator light to tell when the battery needs to use the portable starter. Indicator light showed the battery was fine. Tried going straight from battery cable to portable starter and the starter kept indicating a bad connection so I gave up. Taking the battery to Terry tomorrow to test it. OEM battery is actually a Yuasa. At Terry's suggestion, duct taped the hell out of the throttle grip to hold it open in hopes any fuel in the cylinders evaporates.

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39 minutes ago, Morbo said:

Well, still doesn't start. Topped off the tank with fresh gas. Hooked up the multimeter, 12.4 volts when off. Never dropped below 11.1 when cranking. It sputtered once like it was going to fire up but didn't. Could smell gas after cranking. Hooked up the portable charger, made no difference. It actually has an indicator light to tell when the battery needs to use the portable starter. Indicator light showed the battery was fine. Tried going straight from battery cable to portable starter and the starter kept indicating a bad connection so I gave up. Taking the battery to Terry tomorrow to test it. OEM battery is actually a Yuasa. At Terry's suggestion, duct taped the hell out of the throttle grip to hold it open in hopes any fuel in the cylinders evaporates.

 

 I'd much rather diagnose than guess, but based on the cranking voltage, fuel odor, age of the battery, and the fact that it started fine prior to this last episode--plus previous experience with another member's '09 CBR600rr...all signs point to a flooded engine with gas-fouled spark plugs. Cylinder walls washed down with fuel causing compression loss= higher cranking voltage. Spark plugs gas-fouled and not firing, then during crank the injectors keep adding fuel making a bad situation worse. And the root cause can be a weak battery. But..the proof is in the pudding. WE SHALL SEE!!!

 

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Will holding the throttle wide open while cranking shut off the injectors on a bike? Similar to WOT while cranking a car will stop injector pulses.

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 Scott, not all cars will do that, I'd have to stethescope the injectors during a WOT crank to know for sure.  Some cars will not allow injection if there is no ignition(Mazda Japan), but some will allow injection without ignition(Mazda USA MPV and Tribute)  The latter cars will not clear flooding during a WOT crank. The motorcycles--I'd have to read the injection strategy on a particular model to see if there is deflooding during WOT. No mention of a deflooding feature in either the 600rr or Vstrom1000 shop manuals.

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The other member's issue was solved with oil in the cylinder to regain commpressio as per Terry's suggestion.

 

its important to know your machine - an easy option is to start it often .

 

thats for (a )problem but not solving the underlining or other problems. I do find that Kathy's 600 is about 4 times more picky about starting amperage then my R1.

 

so when your not on top of Amperage you get into cylinder wash down. However again I'm only partly following this so I could be way off.

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1 hour ago, Road_Runner said:

The other member's issue was solved with oil in the cylinder to regain commpression as per Terry's suggestion.

its important to know your machine - an easy option is to start it often .so when your not on top of Amperage you get into cylinder wash down. However again I'm only partly following this so I could be way off.

 No Sir Steve, youre right on the beam here.

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As sort of a ongoing diary for myself (and maybe to help someone in the future)... with Terry's guidance, I have some steps to try and start the bike before disassembling anything.

 

Terry tested the battery and it's good. Unfortunately, I am getting a strong odor of gas in the oil so no matter what it's getting an oil and filter change. Since it's going to be too cold to actually ride the bike if I do get it fired up I won't be doing any of these steps until it is a day where I could potentially ride the bike. Given the current forecast, that may be next Saturday. The battery is sitting in my house on my Jr. Battery Tender.

 

- I rigged the throttle to stay wide-open for a few days to let air in and evaporate fuel/allow it to escape (in process now)

When I'm ready to try and get it to start...

- Remove fuel pump relay from fuse box

- Hook up battery charger to battery (Terry loaned me his battery charger.. not my tender)

- Push starter, keep cranking for 20 seconds, hold throttle wide-open (I did confirm CBRs cut fuel when held wide-open)

- Stop cranking, wait a couple of minutes if it doesn't fire

- Repeat process about 10 times to see if it clears fuel from cylinders

- Reinstall fuel pump relay, attempt to start bike... if it actually does start with the fuel pump relay out, Terry recommended having a 3rd arm handy and ready to insert the relay if the engine fires up in order to reactivate the fuel pump and keep the engine going. (if it doesn't work, possibly fouled plugs or still too flooded to start)

- Also, if it does start, hold throttle at 3K RPMs for a couple of minutes and then let it idle for several more minutes

- Change oil and filter

- Start the bike up again (hopefully)

- Take bike for ride

 

Given the smell of gas in the oil, it's not sounding very likely the bike is going to start without disassembly and other mechanical interventions.

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Is your CBR fly by wire throttle because if that's the case twisting the throttle open won't open the throttle bodies. 

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